I've never understood people bringing up college and prison together, in any context. Usually, it's "college is so much cheaper," as if to suggest we could solve the crime problem by sending convicts to college.

This is a repeat of the same idiocy spewed some months ago by JFKerry(D) himself.

How convenient for JFKerry(D) to have so much confidence in the NewsMedia's compliance with his propaganda?

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005239
For TBOTW's take

http://myaisling.blogspot.com/2004/06/kerry-blacks-educated-or-incarcerated.html for the stats

It's the famous "But it's not their fault." speech...

http://www.danegerus.com/weblog/Comments.asp?svComment=4826

"That's unacceptable," he said. "But it's not their fault." -- JFKerry(D) 6/18/2004

So it's the fault of their crime victims? Their future victims?

Typically liberal exaggeration.

Typical liberal exaggeration.

Sadly, he's probably learning something that the Bush campaign has known for years - that the mainstream media simply does not fact check what politicians say. Only those who seek out more descriminating sources of information know whether what Bush and Kerry say is true or not.
They both lie. They both get away with it. Sad.

And Bush doesnt?

There are more African american "males" in prison than in college. He didn't lie.

Since when is Kerry responsible for what he says in his speeches? Don't you know that he will repeat the same misinformation several times, and if called on it will only say that he never meant to say that.... IT'S THE SPEECHWRITERS FAULT.

The media not only "checks" the facts behind every Bush/Cheney statement, they dig to China to find anything else that can be remotely used to bolster their leftwing bias. Democrats get a free ride, for the most part. If anything negative makes the mainstream media, it's because they axe murdered the wife and children.

"Data compiled by a new study, Cellbocks or Classrooms?: The Funding of Higher Education and Corrections and Its Impact on African American Men, reports that while 603,000 black men were in college in 2001, 791,600 were imprisoned. The study, conducted by the Justice Policy Institute, a nonprofit organization in Washington, D.C., analyzes money spent on incarceration vs. higher education.
[...]
"President Vincent Schiraldi admits that there are more college-aged African American men in college than incarcerated. College age is roughly 18 to 24, but the study researched incarcerated men ages 18 to 55 plus. Thus, because it is a larger sample group, the number of men in jail is higher than the number of men in college."

www.globalblacknews.com/jail.html

Apparently Kerry didn't notice that his source statistic applied to black men, but his comment applied to all blacks. What does that mistake say about his attitude toward black women?

I don't know whether the two sets statistics above are fully comparable, but subtracting the Black Men from All Blacks indicates that only 108,000 Black Women are in jail, while 1,629,000 are in college.

In any case there are too many black criminals, too many blacks in jail, and too many with a whole host of social pathologies. This is an tragic reality, but what does Kerry propose to do about it? Have another war on poverty? Just spend more money? Send them all to Harvard (as mentioned above)?

What has not been tried, especially by the left, is to get blacks to confront the fact that they have some serious cultural issues to deal with and that wallowing in victimhood, the blame game, and a well developed sense of entitlement is not going to solve the problem. There are only going to be lots of blacks in college and few in jail when blacks start valuing education, hard work and future planning over immediate gratification and the gangsta culture. That can't be imposed by whites. It has to come from within. But so far their exclusive focus has been about how evil white society has been to blacks and how they must demand eternal preferences and compensation.

Maybe Kerry thinks black women don't count.

Yeah...what has the Government and white people ever done to blacks....oh wait......

To systematically destroy their culture over hundreds of years and then tell them to get over it while we take superior spots on the social heirarchy is not only sickening, its amazing that conservatives see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Statistics are fun. I wonder what number of Af-am males got sent to jail while in college?

I wonder also what the racial comparisons are between whites/asians/latinos etc for the jailed/college ratio.

Yeah, the democrats systematically destroyed the black family (culminating with LBJ's "Great Society") so as to enslave them to the democrat party and harvest their votes. and they see nothing wrong with it!

Justin,

How long is the white man held accountable for past generation's wrongdoing? 100 years? 200 years? 2000 years?

We (the collective white society) have learned from PAST, egregious wrongdoing, and have made allowances (re: affirmative action, welfare) to the African American/American Indian community. Yet, if you look at such policies closely... do they really HELP? Or are they just social programs
which not only perpetuate, but also reward apathy?

When will African Americans get fed up with "free-ticket programs" and say, I will do it ON MY OWN... (there are several government programs that assist the ambitious, such as the Small Business Administration: http://www.sba.gov/) You know, Justin, you CAN succeed these days without playing the race or sex card.

I'd like to know what you think of Bill Cosby's comments? He's encouraging his brothers to stop blaming the white man. Why not you take a bit of his advice, as well!

http://rateyourmusic.com/board_message/message_id_is_120654_and_board_id_is_6
http://www.billoreilly.com/currentarticle?JSESSIONID=Azxgj6vGOnAhBgylY0ofzOe032HUPhq40xMH2Norojh62kDRmWVn!623869925

Maybe he means more black men in jail rather than college. We know black women value an education and that the preponderance of blacks in jail are men

I suppose Mr. Kerry did not make himself very clear! He should have specified that there are more African-American males in jail - or have been in jail - that they are in college - or have been to college!

Even if we look at the still disgraceful statistic that there are twice as many African-Americans in College than in the Prison System, one is forced to ask: "But why?"

Easy responses are not fair and are only feel good factors.

I urge all to set aside all their strong opinions to one side, and ponder over the real issue here.

Thank you.

Nader

Congratuations, you've caught Kerry getting a basic social fact wrong. Now, some other basic facts.
The Civil War, a war fought for equality and freedom for African-Americans, ended 139 years ago.
Today African Americans are twice as likely to die in infancy as are other Americans, twice as likely to be unemployed, much less likely to graduate from college, much more likely to be in jail or prison.
Is this their problem, or America's?

Justin,

I'm no conservative, but your comment is the kind of regressive idocy that is killing African-American culture. My ancestors had there culture destroyed and were enslaved for over 2000 years by the Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, and Turks. So, to use the logic of self-pity and entitlement for the suffering of one's ancestors...the people of Greece, Italy, and Turkey owe me a fat check.

Sadly, many people in the Balkans buy into this sentiment and thus their societies wallow in self-pity and nationalistic hatred over stuff that happened centuries ago. If Black America wishes to avoid the fate of the Balkans, the should take note.

1. Even if the comparison is only limited to black males, it is still a false one. There may be more black males in prison than in college. However, the college students are almost entirely made up of a very limited demographic: college age people, say, age 18-24. On the other hand, the prison population contains the entire age range for humans past the age of legal responsibility. So the sample is greatly distorted. If there were more college age black males in prison than in college, it might be significant, but that is not the case.

2. In addition, many of those in jail are in jail far longer than the 4-6 years in which people are in college. If someone is in jail for 24 years, as many as 6 cycles of college students will have gone through college in the meantime. So it would take 6 college students to cancel out the statistic of that one 24 year prison term.

The Balkans? 2000 years ago? That has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE. These are not their ancestors who were/are discriminated against. Don't forget that until 40 years ago, blacks were highly discriminated against in this country. It was institutionalized racism for 200 years.. no different than the apartheid regime in South Africa. So, after 1 generation, we tell them to get over it?

The fact is that rightwing's policies have made it harder for many people, black and white to afford college. I'm from an upper middle class home and although I had the grades to attend the University of Maryland, we coulnd't afford it, so I had to go to a little State school. And this was before Bush. State tuitions are going through the roof because the GOP would rather give tax breaks to millionaires than help send 1 poor black kid to college. Hell, even if you're against helping blacks, help the States, so they don't have to raise tuition rates. So, we have millions of blacks who's parents were treated as 2nd class citizens, who's parents did not get the same access to secondary education as whites and who have been stuck in the cycle of poverty for generations.

The immoral war on drugs has done more to cripple poor blacks in this country than any liberal social program has done. Thats why you have more black men in jail than in college. Blacks are thrown in prison at a higher rate than whites who committed the same crimes. We need to get rid of these mandatory minimum sentences for nonviolent drug offenders, or we're just spending more of "the peoples money" down the road on incarceration.

Kristina,

"How long is the white man held accountable for past generation's wrongdoing? 100 years? 200 years? 2000 years?"

Well, after a 100 years of slavery, and another 100 years of government enforced discrimination, I'd say 40 years of being held accountable is not quite enough.

Johnnydigital,

If you're going to make a blanket statement as such:

"...rightwing's policies have made it harder for many people, black and white to afford college."

you really should supply specific facts in support of your argument. You are just like all the other lefty liberal Dems out there that indiscriminately make statements (ex., Kerry) without also supplying any *substantial* factual information.

And, if you really do believe that tuition costs have skyrocketed as a direct result of rightwing policies, then why has the Dem-ruled Congress not addressed such spiraling school costs?

I do agree that college tuition has reached a price tag out of reach for many and all, however, blaming one group of people is too simplistic...

This is absurd. Rationalizing failure by blaming racist thinking or lack of support from taxpayers will not solve anything. Yes, illegal drugs are a problem. But the illicit drug trade will florish in a culture that adores badness. That could explain why a disproportionate number of young black men readily accept a criminal life.

It is a fact that black criminals mainly victimized blacks. How many young black men have been murdered by young black men? Why no protests on behalf of the victims of these and other violent crimes? What about freedom from fear? Quit blaming the white man! Don't be ridiculous.

Petey,

What's your solution? Affirmative Action? How has that helped African Americans?

Why is it a bad thing that people who commit crimes against other people are in prison, regardless of the numbers?

Also, the spiralling cost of higher education is primarily the result of leftist education policies. Since student loans and grants are underwritten by the government and rise in response to education costs, there are no market controls over the cost of higher education. This is why higher education costs rise faster than inflation. Also, leftists have foisted useless academic programs in womyn's studies and African-American studies that prepare students for nothing other than careers teaching Womyn's Studies and African-American Studies or advocating government spending in those areas. At a minimum these useless niche programs should be limited to one or two schools within a state rather than spread broadly across the university system. This approach would save millions in education costs.

Kristina,

"What's your solution? Affirmative Action?"

Yes. Affirmative Action. I'd keep that going for a couple more generations.

"How has that helped African Americans?"

It seems pretty obvious to me that African Americans are much more able to take part in American society than they were 40 years ago.

To everyone who's moaning about "victims" of these crimes... a sizable proportion of them are things like weed-smoking and weed-possession. Things which white guys would be sentenced to some public service for, not sent to the pen.

Nobody's asking you to feel guilty for your ancestors' actions, Kristina. When the government sentences blacks to harsher sentences than whites---NOW---and when government lets whites plea-bargain or therwise weasel their way out of minor charges---NOW---that's a problem. And it's not a historical problem. It's now.

Still, Kerry really should edit that to say "African-American men" instead of "African-Americans". It's not the kind of OMIGODz0rz I'VEBEENLIVINGALIE that it's being made out to be here.

Matt,

Thank you! I went to Brooklyn College and was required to take "Caribbean Culture" (it was part of the Core Curriculum). This course was a waste of my time and money. I had no interest in the subject matter, nor did I feel it would make me a "well-rounded" student.

WHY are universities requiring students to take multicultural courses? I think these classes are used a vehicle to brainwash weak-minded students into following the path of these wishful Commie Professors. (Bring on the flames! BTW, I am Adjunct Faculy at NYU and see first-hand the brainwashing in action.)

here are some great articles:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13545
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13030

Affirmative Action passes students who have not rightfully deserved to pass! There are students who CANNOT speak or write a complete sentence!!! Why should they be passed simply because of their race? I KNOW THIS FIRST-HAND. Test scores are lowered so that the passing grade for a particular minority group fulfills a quota. This is not helping! I know.. I'm a teacher!!!

What this does is engender entitlement. "What can I get out of the system..." There is no incentive to earn your own way. Why would anyone deny a hand-out? It's FREE and you don't have to prove yourself. This is hurting large segments of the population...and, maybe, just maybe this is one of the reasons why there is such deterioration and in the inner cities.

Please. When you've taught students who have not mastered the English language in our wonderful ENGLISH-speaking country, then talk to me...

How has affirmative action helped blacks? Are you serious? How has the GI bill helped whites? By allowing them access to higher education that they most certainly wouldn't of had before. Thats how.

I'm not blaming anyone. And I'm not sticking up for those who commit crimes against others... thats a nice strawman there. If someone is a murderer, they deserve to be punished... no matter what their social status. I'm talking about victimless drug offenders here, who make up the vast majority of those who are locked up. And the differences in sentencing between blacks and whites, which are HUGE.

And leftists education policies are the reason education is so expensive? PUUUULLLLEEEAAAASE!!! If George Bush would've helped the states with their rising healthcare costs as well as their recesssion related money problems they wouldn't of had to raise the tuitions and cut grants and scholarships.. which effect the poor and middle class much more than the rich... but they get the millions in tax breaks... go figure. And useless academic programs? Like Womens studies and AFrican American studies? Oh yeah, they cost a LOT of money dont' they....LOL. Most schools I know have only a handful of professors for these classes.. get real. Another strawman.

But conservatives act as though blacks have no greivance about discrimination... I'm saying that they do. The fact is, that only 40 years ago, blacks were 2nd class citizens and were openly discriminated against by the US government.

There was no white middle class until WWII, when the GI bill gave those who couldn't ususally afford colleges a chance to go. That, on top of a booming economy and rising wages helped to create the middleclass that is the bedrock of America. But, during that time, blacks were being chased with dogs and firehoses, lynched openly, denied equal access schools and employment. And you expect, after ONE generation for them to quit wining about it? These people remember folks. They remember the humilation of the signs that hung in America - NO DOGS, NO NIGGERS - they remember their struggle. How many of you have ever been to the getto? Do you know how hard it is to live like that? Do you believe that those people WANT to live like that?

I submit, that unless we want to continue to see this trend of more black men in prison than in college, we need make the schools better. Since underprivelaged area schools are funded mostly with local tax revenue, the government should make up the difference. I'd rather have my tax dollars keeping people out of prison than putting people in.

But I will agree with yall on one point. I think Bill Cosby was RIGHT ON in his remarks the past week. Doing well in school is not "acting white", its acheiving something for yourself. Its an opportunity for a better life for you and your childeren and your childerens childeren. Its about hope. And sadly, it seems as though that is sorely lacking in the mainstream black community.

My son's best friend is African American. He recently told us that he hates afirmative action, because it means for the rest of his life, anywhere he gets educationally or professionally, people are going to think it's because of affirmative action, not because he earned it.

A 13 year old kid gets it. Why are liberals so stupid?

"And leftists education policies are the reason education is so expensive? PUUUULLLLEEEAAAASE!!! If George Bush would've helped the states with their rising healthcare costs as well as their recesssion related money problems they wouldn't of had to raise the tuitions and cut grants and scholarships.. which effect the poor and middle class much more than the rich... but they get the millions in tax breaks... go figure. And useless academic programs? Like Womens studies and AFrican American studies? Oh yeah, they cost a LOT of money dont' they....LOL. Most schools I know have only a handful of professors for these classes.. get real. Another strawman."

Unfortunately, college costs have been skyrocketing for decades, so it isn't something you can blame Bush for. The first guy was right. There's nothing to stop universities from constantly raising rates as long as the government guaruntees student loans. Your argument is merely that the Government should continue to pay for everything anyone might want. Perhaps you will be good enough to show me where the magical pot of gold is that will pay for all of this.

As to the GI Bill, it saddens me that I must point out that it was a bill designed to repay men who had been conscripted for their services to the government in time of war. That is very different than lowering standards for someone because they belong to a minority group. Your statement that a white middle class did not exist prior to WW2 is ludicrous. There has always been a middle class. They just didn't live in the suburbs then.

JohnnyD.

there are some inner city folk who, rather than take up the fight against, perpetuate the ghetto-living style. my husband is a NYC fireman who regularly runs to the inner-city projects. he and his company have to walk (and sometimes crawl) through human feces and urine in the elevators and hallways. why would anyone want to use where they live as a toilet? why do some inner city kids defile the very places they call home? Yeah, i know these projects aren't the optimal places to live, and it's easy for me to say living in white suburbia.... but why willingly make your environment even worse?

I say take the reins of ownership and responsibility, and DO SOMETHING for the greater good of society, your community, or just YOURSELF... Fight the fight, as MLK did. don't disgrace your forefather freedom fighters by accepting the status quo or passing the blame on someone else.

Kristina,

As a friend of mine used to say, "There's no one so poor that they can't clean up their own front yard."

Andrew, thanks for backing me up.

Johnnydigital:

I agree with you on one point: the war on drugs is and has been a disaster that has done huge harm to blacks and indeed to the whole country. Just like Prohibition, it has created powerful gangs, increased crime, and done nothing to stop the problem for which it was created.

I do disagree with some of your other points. Regarding affirmative action and blacks' access to higher education, it is of course proper to remove any legal barriers that may have existed to blacks entering college. However, that's not what affirmative action does. Affirmative action enables those who otherwise wouldn't be accepted into college because of inadequate academic achievement to go to college anyway.

This is a poor policy choice for many reasons. First, it does not address the root cause of poor academic achievement at the primary and secondary education levels. It's like treating a heart attack with pain reliever. Second, because blacks are sometimes admitted without adequate acedemic preparation, it sets them up for failure (or requires the lowering of standards). Third, it encourages an attitude of entitlement, rather than hard work, among the beneficiaries. Fourth, it stigmatizes all minorities who enter a college that has an affirmative action policy. People not unreasonably assume that a black college student was accepted into college, not because of hard work, but because of affirmative action. And finally, and most importantly, affirmative action is unjust. To the extent affirmative action has any effect, it requires that a better qualified non-minority applicant be denied admission. Remedying the past effects of discrimiantion by discriminating -- yes, that's what affirmative action is -- is both illogical and unjust.

I also disagree with you on the cause behind the explosive growth in higher education costs. Apparently, you attribute this phenomenon to George Bush's refusal to give money to the states to cover their higher healthcare costs. The most obvious problem with this theory is that higher education costs have been rising much faster than inflation long before George Bush took office. Another problem with your theory is that it fails to explain why the cost of PRIVATE higher education has also exceeded the rate of inflation. Matt Kurlander's explanation -- that government-backed student loans and grants have distorted the education market (see post above) --explains this fact; your theory doesn't.

Further, I find it difficult to accept your assertion that there was no white middle class until WWII. The white middle class may have expanded after WWII, but it's inaccurate to say it did not exist prior to that time. Moreover, you give far too much credit to the GI bill. After WWII, America's economy boomed because of peace, a relatively free economy, and pent-up demand, not because of the GI bill. Capitalism, not government subsidies, is what caused the tremendous growth in the economy. We need more economic freedom now, not less, and less government spending, not more.

The comment that Kerry "lied" about the number of Blacks in jail versus college entirely misses the point.

1. I suspect he read some newspaper article and incorporated it into a speech or statement without doing his own individual research. But, dear, we all do that, and it's not called lying.

What he seems to have done is taken the figures about Black men and generalized to all African-Americans. One study showed 603,000 Black men in college and 791,000 in jail.

As the article I cite above shows, however, this is not quite what it seems, since the jail figure is of Black men of all ages, and the college figure largely of "college age men". (I think that this may be less significant than it seems: "college age" is an increasingly elastic term, especially at community colleges and state universities: while the prison population is heavily skewed to men in there late teens, twenties, and thirties).

The *general point* made by Kerr remains valid. Hocker, in the article cited, argues that when adjusted for age, there are 2.6 Black men aged 18-24 in college for every one in jail. But for white men, the figure is 28 in college for everyone in jail.

Dancing around when Kerry makes a numerical error, but a valid point, makes people look like pin-headed jerks.

Paul

Okay, let's assume John Kerry made a valid point and that he simply erred in not checking his facts. What remains stupid is to send a message that implies "America: we can solve this problem if you elect me President." Mr. Kerry and the United States taxpayers can not solve this problem.

I would leap for joy if politicians disdain the opinions of Jesse Jackson and Julian Bonds and place the problem where it belongs, squarely in the lap of the community. I am sure most people agree, we are successful because of our values, our work ethic and not because of help from a benevolent government.

White people in the north actively helped blacks escape slavery. Now blacks accuse ancestors of those that helped free them of being racist. The average everyday black is way more racist than the average white.

I think Jim Carrey's honest advice to his client in the movie "Liar, Liar." ("Stop breaking the law, *ssh*le!!") should be mentioned here. I doubt Kerry has the balls to deliver that kind of advice to his target audience. That takes a Bill Cosby.

For those of you who are so upset about affirmative action, I hope the fact that George W. got into Yale with an unacceptable SAT score (thank you Daddy and Grandaddy!) angers you just as much. And I would expect that the Morgan Stanley verdict has you tripping over yourself with joy. If neither of these suppositions is true, then you need to take a good hard look in the mirror and see yourself for the hypocrite you are as you grin and wink at the good-old-boy network that is alive and well in American universities, corporations and social organizations.

debra,

i don't care what Bush received on his SATs. And I don't know/care how he got into Yale... the issue is NOT about a good-old-boy network, which does exist along BOTH party lines and both sexes (Teresa Heinz bankrolling Kerry). you can't just point fingers. Bush is not the ONLY person who takes advantage of "connections."

the issue is that the government funded program Affirmative Action does not succeed in elevating the educational standing of a minority group. it just blindly pushes these individuals through the system without taking into consideration the long-term, detrimental effects of a mediocre education.

In the end, many minorities are not equipped with the fundamental skills to compete in the job market. I see the results in my classes; I have to ask students to repeat themselves because of inferior communication skills. (I haven't the slightest idea what they are saying, nor what they are trying to say.)

If Bush did get into Yale thanks to daddy, then well, look where it got him? PRESIDENT OF THE USA.

stick with the issue.

Nice attempt to change the subject, Debra.

Kristina:

This is the flip side of the same issue, or should be in your case. If you oppose special privileges for one end of the social spectrum, how can you justify special privileges for others, primarily for white males? Which qualified individual was not accepted to Yale so that the Shrub could get in through the back door? This was just a test Kristina, and like Dubya, you flunked.

And do you really want to go through all of the assistance Georgy boy got from Daddy and Daddy's friends throughout his entire life? Nothing but one example of "paternative" action after another.

The drug war was designed to put men of color in jail. It has been doing that since before 1900.

Read Charles Whitbread on the subject. It really is fascinating. He discusses in part how alcohol prohibition was designed to sap the strength of the Democratic Party.

NO, it's not the flip side of the same issue.

My tax dollars didn't help Georgy boy get into Yale. I don't agree with my hard-earned money funding FAILED programs, like Affirmative Action. There is a huge difference.

And, rather than bashing Bush's privileged life (which AGAIN you'll find along both party lines), address the issue of the damaging, long-term effects of pushing underachievers through a system simply based on the color of one's skin? Isn't that inherently discriminatory? I mean, what you're essentially defending (if I can only get you to ADDRESS the issue!!) is that African Americans can't make it this world without government assistance. Do you agree with that statement? Or are you going to post another blog about how Georgy boy was helped by daddy and his friends.

Please address the issue of this blog..

Kristina:

When I can get you to admit that there are "damaging, long-term effects of pushing underachievers through a system simply based on" who their daddy is, then I'll be happy to address more directly the affirmative action question. If you don't think that we're all affected when shit floats, you are sadly mistaken. We only have to look at 1600 Penn Ave to see that. Personally, I think we should help people based on their economic condition, not the color of their skin. Applying different criteria, however, won't drastically affect those who need assistance.

You wear your hypocrisy on your sleeve like a friggin' badge of honor.

While the "good ole boy" network is just as unfair as Affirmative Action, there are two key differences: AA is government mandated, and based on ethnicity, while the GOB network is based on priviledge (no matter what ethnicity). I can't do anything to change my ethnicity, but I can try to work my butt off to make something of myself so that I can take advantage of opportunities that will get my closer to a "priviledged" status. Yes, I agree, there are limitations on how close a black from the ghetto can get, but a lot of those same limitations are on "white trash" types. But there are people who do it......through nothing but hard work. No amount of hard work will turn my white skin black.

Could Kerry and others have meant African-American MEN, rather than just African-Americans in general? That is that there are more African-American males in jail than in college. Would the statistics hold up then? They might!!!

It would also be true if you changed it to "there are more African Americans in the justice system than in college," since almost 1/3 of all African-American men aged 20-29 are either in prison or on parole.

OR

"More African-Americans are in prison or cannot vote because of a felony conviction," since 1.4 million African-Americans have been disenfranchised for felony convictions.

War on drugs a bad thing? Let me tell you the worst thing ceasing this war on drugs would do to our society and it involves our children and schools. I'm a teacher who spent 3 years in an "underprivileged" 98% black school...aka the ghetto schools. Right now cigarettes are legal for those over the age of 18 (that is people who should no longer be in high school) but I would estimate that 15-20% of our kids smoked them any way. It doesn’t matter how they got them, they smoked them in the bathrooms, outside between classes, at sporting events, any time they didn’t think they would get caught. Thankfully, if cigs have any effect on adolescents, it seems to be a calming one. Now picture those kids getting legal joints as easily as they can get cigs…okay, they can get the joints pretty easily now but at least there are fairly heavy consequences involved unlike with cigs or like there would be with legalized pot. Can you imagine teaching a class with 15-20% of you kids high because, “hey, my mom, dad, older sister can do it legally” and without fear? You’ve got to be joking. Legalization is one more LIBERAL dead end for poor and minority kids. Their best justification for it? “We could tax it!!!!” Sounds like more liberal tax and spend hooey to me. One more way to remove the consequences of personally and socially destructive behaviour from falling squarely on the heads of those who engage in it.

I refuse to resort to the mudslinging contest to which you have reduced this blog. You have turned this (what could have been a valuable, informative, thought-provoking dialogue) exchange into a "Bash GWB" session. You offered nothing else but Georgy this and Georgy that... I could have done the same with Kennedy (remember Mary Jo Kopechne?) or the disgraceful Clinton, but I stayed with the topic and chose the high ground.

You want to talk only of how much you hate Bush and how privileged his life has been, well so be it. I gracefully bow out of this empty discourse, since you refuse to confront the REAL issue of how Affirmative Actions fails the African American community.

On November 2 I'll be wearing my "friggin' badge of honor" knowing that the likes of you will be silenced for -- at least -- another 4 years.

1.) Comparing the "Good Old Boy Network" to Affirmative Action is absurd. AA is a LAW, enforced by the state. Bush getting into Yale as a "legacy" is a policy on the part of a private organization - Yale. Their feeling is "The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree," which in W's case is manifestly true.

2.) As to the problems blacks face in American society, the worst are self-inflicted wounds: illegal drug use, single-parent families, not taking education seriously, an infatuation with criminal "culture" and a disdain for work ... This is why there is a polarization in the black community - thinking, working productive types versus parasites, criminals, losers and those who can only feel sorry for themselves.

3.) kristina: what you say is, unfortunately, too true. I am a manager and I can't beging to tell you how many times I've turned an attempt by a young black male to get a job at my firm into a counseling session, as I explain in no uncertain terms that, yes, what they consider to be acting white is EXACTLY what they need to do to get - and keep - a job. Get up early, show up dressed properly (not in warmup clothing or baggy anything), enunciate clearly, realize my customers and I don't care how you express yourself in your neighborhood, knock off the sullen/menacing attitude, show a willingness to learn, apply yourself constantly, and show up every day, on time. These things should be taught in the family, and no amount of Head Start, WIC-type programs, of Affirmative Action can inculcate these attitudes in every client.

I know this will bring on the flames, but (and I should point out I am a Roman Catholic of German - Prussian - descent) maybe they should take the Jews as role models. To paraphrase a song: "nobody knows the troubles they've seen," and OVERCOME. Seems to me I'd rather have been a black in Alabama in 1942 then a Jew in Bavaria.

Wow. Talk about gullible. You guys are, in the worst way. I was born, went to school, and worked for thirty years in the same zip code--west Oakland California. I loved the Raiders before Al Davis moved to LA and I love the Raiders now.

African American, Chinese American, Honky? If you're smart enough to be reading this blog, I just can't belive you're dumb enough to go for this crap. I just can't belive it. Don't any of you have eyes in your head? America is the best place be no matter what your politics or your race or your religion and yet YOU are all too chickens--t to say it's anybody's fault but my own if I stew in a drug haze on 36th street because the Republicans are in power.

Wear your hat the frontwards way. Pull up your pants. Speak English. Make a life for yourself. okay?

For crying out loud, BE HERE NOW.

Or go to the Middle East and wish everybody would wake up tomorrow with amnesia.

Nitro Nora
Recently immigrated to Grand Junction Colorado
and let the flames fly. I do REALITY, folks and you guys are lost in the ethernet, big time.

Hey Rob Riener are you the dirt biker from California? CC Camp?
Nitro Nora

Even if what he said were true, SO WHAT? If he can score points with this, how about:

1. There are way too many cars on the freeway. This costs us billions each year in lost time and wasted gasoline.

2. The Southwest is scorched by fires every summer. This causes massive personal tragedy and loss of life, and billions in insurance losses.

3. Earthquakes wreak havoc on undeveloped countries each year, causing massive deaths and destruction.

4. People get fatter and fatter, causing cancer, heart disease, and flatulence.

5. Hair loss in men is in epidemic proportions.

Catch my drift? How does listing the ills of the world make you a savior?

How about a solution?

JUST ONE, John.

We're waiting...................

Mr. Reiner,

A resounding Thank You for sharing your experience with us. I concur completely. You have stepped up -- with courage! -- to counter the politically correct thinking that separates Us from Them, metaphorically speaking. We are a nation that should not be divided or given special consideration based on race, creed or sex. Any law that makes allowances for such qualifications implicitly discriminates the people it wishes to protect!

The previous blogger has resorted to name calling since her argument was vacuous. I'm the "hypocrite?" HA. Apparently, living a privileged life is OK if you're a Democrat. If you're a Republican, however, then you're the big bad wolf.

Teacher 3,

Nice to see the successes of the war on drugs finally reported.

In Mass. chronic drug use by children is considered a marker for child abuse. If drugs are not the cause of the problem but an effect we are putting in a lot of effort fighting symptoms while leaving the root causes untreated.

War on drugs showing little signs of success?

I rest my case.

Discriminating on the basis of family connections, athletic ability or lefthandedness is entirely permissible. Discriminating on the basis of race is specifically prohibited by the United States Constitution (i.e., it is illegal). We apparently only need to wait 24 more years before our Supreme Court adheres to the oath its members took when tbey were sworn in. It is also morally indefensible to exclude an economically disadvantaged Asian with excellent academic qualifications to admit a middle class black or hispanic solely due to skin color. It happens at every major public and private univerisity in the country every year, and will continue to happen every year for, apparently, the next 24 years.

Dear Sir/Madam:

The Affirmative action law was needed to redress the inequities of the past. What the Supreme Court did to extend racial preferences in schools was not warranted. Hardship preferences should be based upon economic circumstances not the color of a persons skin. The preferences should be centered upon providing financial assistance to those who show apptitude.

Shouldn't it be a crime for politicians to LIE intentionally to the public, especially when they are INTENTIONALLY misleading that public for their own gain? I think it's time for a new ammendment to the Constitution. Politicians should only be allowed to tell the TRUTH when running for office, whether speaking off the record or on the record...that should slim the pack down substantially!

See in the comments here and over at Matthew Yglesias attempted dismissal of the issue that 'the left' seems torn - can't decide if the best course is to denigrate the observation as simply a 'numerical error' or to make a psuedo spirited defense of the victimization canard.

What to do, what to do.

Talk about being caught wrong about seven ways to Sunday. Kerry shouldn't be allowed to wash these cookie crumbs off his hands...

Great discussion! Aren't we all happy that we live in a society where we can discuss such things freely? This freedom allows us great opportunities if we're willing to take advantage and are passionate about achieving our goals. Jealousy will only bring you down; therefore bless those who are privileged. Maybe Affirmative Action is still new and has not had time to work its magic. But take notes from history. Communism was a form of affirmative action for entire countries, and that failed. Many fail to see that we are not the same. We should be treated equally, but as a people, we have different ideas, different tastes, and different goals. Not everyone will be happy with this program or with that one. Not everyone will be satisfied with this decision or that decision. We can all blame the other side for many of the problems. Problems will arise, and it’s unpredictable who was or will be at fault. The only thing to do is to discuss the solutions. Solutions are difficult to reach as there are a wide variety of limits, constraints, and factors to consider in order offer a perfect resolution. Rather than blame each other, maybe we should discuss what some of the solutions to all these issues are.

The problem of today's disenchanted youth stems from many, many converging occurrences, but ALL originate from the moral decay of society.

Here are three of the largest issues, IMHO, that should be investigated as contributing factors to this moral decay:

1) Lack of parental presence/guidance. Kids come home from school to an empty house/apt with nothing to do. Idle time makes an idle mind. At least ONE parent should be home to be the moral role model *required* by every parent. It is the duty of the parent(s) to instill a solid, moral, principled upbringing in which the child understands right from wrong, and in which values such as truth, integrity, love, faith, honor and respect for others and for oneself are held in the highest regard. These values must be taught as being SACRED, and should be held in the highest regard!

Constant parental presence may be unrealistic considering that dual-family income and single-families have become the norm, but something must still be done or arranged where the parent(s) still play an ACTIVE in a child's life.

No child should be allowed to come and go as he or she pleases. There should be rules, and standards set and kids/teenagers should be held responsible for their actions. Meaning: you get caught smoking in school? You're GROUNDED!!! The lack of discipline has created the ME generation we are seeing today. It's all about me, my, I: the ENTITLEMENT attitude!

2) Corrupting images/sounds from the entertainment industry. The movie, music, TV, cable and video game industry draw NO lines when it comes to displaying or vocalizing violence. These producers and distributors should take more responsibility for the images they portray on the big and small screens, and in music lyrics (such as Ice Cube singing "kicking his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach," or Eminem's Backstabbing lyrics. These greedy, sleezy entertainment types haven't the slightest clue that they are contributing to the destruction of our society since it will be the children raised by this CRAP put out by Hollywood who will be our future leaders... yikes!

3) Lack of funding for our educational systems, especially the deplorable low teacher salaries. Teachers, second to parents, are the most influential people in a child's development. They need MONEY to create an environment which is intellectually stimulating, fun and interesting, and safe. Teachers should be making a whole lot more than $30-60K/year. And, 60K is the cap, for the most part. How about this... take ALL the money earmarked for Affirmative Action and give it to our schools?! We need to flood our educational systems with money and support if we are going to reverse the dumbing down of America. And Affirmative Action (to return to that issue) contributes to the dumbing down of America.

Thoughts?

It seems odd that speakers get a positive reaction when they tells the NAACP that a lot of black men are in prison. Are they happy that blacks are in prison? If anything, shouldn't they be ashamed?

This shows how victimology hurts blacks. Organizations like the NAACP prefer failure, because failure validates blacks' status as victims.

In the 16-44 age bracket, the percent of college enrollment is 12.8% for Blacks vs 12.6% for White non-Hispanics. Blacks have a lower rate in the 16-21 range, but more than make up for it in the 22-44 range. I have no idea why: this could be declining enrollment or delayed enrollment.

Black
Age Pop'n Enrollment %Enrolled
16-17 1210 19 1.6%
18-19 1251 454 36.3%
20-21 1138 375 33.0%
22-24 1624 387 23.8%
25-29 2470 325 13.2%
30-34 2621 242 9.2%
35-44 5680 244 4.3%
Total 16-44 15994 2046 12.8%

White non-Hispanic
Age Pop'n Enrollment%Enrolled
16-17 5247 87 1.7%
18-19 5221 2580 49.4%
20-21 4852 2330 48.0%
22-24 7254 1796 24.8%
25-29 11563 1275 11.0%
30-34 12934 770 6.0%
35-44 31770 1058 3.3%
Total 16-44 78841 9896 12.6%

Source:
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/school/ppl-148/tab01.txt

I just want to make a few more comments about blacks, affirmative action, and victimization.

I do not consider myself to be on the right particularly and I detest George Bush, but after having lived in 12 countries and visited 48 I can tell you that the racial PC which we have in the US is madness and the only way that it maintains its stranglehold on us all is thru intimidation and fear.

The fact is that humanity has been abusing and exploiting itself since we stated being humans. The Jews, the Koreans, the Irish, and the Russians, to name a few, have all had it pretty bad in the past and yet all have been able to come to America and do pretty well. The world is full of minorities who are despised and barely tolerated by the majority in their countries and yet these same minorities are the most successful members of society. To say that blacks are doing badly solely because they had a repressive past and are a minority is contradicted by tons of other examples of similar groups doing well.

In fact despite all their obvious problems, American blacks are the wealthiest blacks in the world. I met a Nigerian recently who asked me about the US as his eyes glowed with dreams of going to the US. My friend who has known several Africans who have lived in the US said that they encountered no discrimination in the US, unlike in Europe or the rest of the world.

I see absolutely no evidence that the US is this hive of unrelenting racism and oppression that some people seem to imagine it to be. There are examples of racism in the US along with incidence of rudeness, and stupidity but a few examples don't make a general rule. I would say that in general most whites have been raised in such a politically correct culture that they mainly go out of their way not to do anything which would appear to be unfair to blacks. Whites can mistreat other whites without problems but if they are caught mistreating blacks it can end their career. I think that blacks get the benefit of the doubt most of the time.

So if it is not oppression which is keeping blacks down, then it must be the blacks who are keeping themselves down with their culture of non achievement.

I worked in a hotel one summer in Washington which is a city about 80 percent black. Still in the hotel there were hardly any blacks who worked there. I asked someone why this was and he said that they tended not to take their jobs very seriously and did not last long.

Affirmative action programs or as I call it the racial spoils system may help to soften our guilt but it does little to help blacks. The blacks who had it in them would have done fine anyway in a race blind system. Blacks who go to college should be in a college which corresponds to their level and if they cannot even succeed in a community college then they should not go to college. Most of the recipients of college affirmative action come from middle class families. The really poor rarely even apply to college.

Affirmative action undermines our societies beliefs in a meritocracy, fair competition, and a color blind society. If we really believe that the poor deserve more then we should give preferences to the poor in college admissions no just to mostly middle class blacks.

As to George Bush and his easy admissions to Yale, I would be perfectly happy to eliminate such preferences. Having said that, legacy admission students don't tend to end up at the bottom of the class unlike black students and legacy admissions tend to favor whites but do not exclusively favor them.

Still one reason why I dislike Bush II so much is that he is basically a slacker who has gotten almost everything he has in life thru exploiting connections from his family, so if colleges want to eliminate legacy admissions I am all in favor of it.

One more comment about blacks and schools. The problem with inner city schools is not really principally about bad teachers, bad administrators or even a lack of money. It is caused almost entirely by bad students. Good students are very easy to teach and any reasonably competent teacher can teach them with ease. For students who don't want to learn and don't respect education, teaching is a constant uphill battle and can usually only be achieved by very strict discipline and/or uniquely gifted teachers. There are exceptional school districts which teach poor blacks and hispanics and which actually spend a whole lot of money on each student. And you know what? There success rate is barely higher than the typical inner city underfunded school. If students want to learn they can be taught easily and need only minimal resources to do so. If students don't want to learn and disrespect education then it becomes very very difficult.

Violence flows from Africans to Caucasians.

Money flows from Caucasians to Africans.

Caucasians do not oppress Africans; Africans oppress Caucasians.

Kristina--

I agree with most of your argument, but I disagree (only somewhat) with one point, and would add to another.

First, I don't think "flooding the educational system" with money is necessarily the answer. I think money can help, but it needs to be disbursed carefully. I think increasing teacher salaries would help (full disclosure: I am one), but I would also tend to shy away from spending on "bricks and mortar," if you know what I mean. I once worked at a college that spent large amounts of money on things like landscaping, flowers, and such. Their idea was that this would draw more students to the college. And it worked. The problem? There was nothing to KEEP them there. They had a 70% freshman transfer rate.

Computers, SMART boards, things like that? They are tools. Expensive ones. I know I can teach as effectively with an old-fashioned chalkboard and some handouts as I can with a Power Point presentation. A computer can be an effective tool for a student to conduct research on, etc., but it can also be one costly solitaire game. I think too often the decisions on what to do with the money are made by people who either have never set foot in a classroom (except as a student), or have not done so in many years.

I think discipline is a major factor. I think that's why many studies show that parochial schools, despite spending less per student, acheive better results than secular schools. I have friends who work in public schools, and there is this tremendous fear that runs through the faculty that the students (and parents) weild the power. No one wants to discipline the kids because a quick call to the principal could spell doom. And very few administrations seem to want to back the teachers these days.

The other thing that I would mention is that I would add professional and collegiate sports to the list of corrupting influences. They don't corrupt in quite the same way, but I think there are some problems there, and for whatever reason, it seems to me to be affecting black students at a higher rate (although I don't think it EXCLUSIVELY affects them). I knew many students at colleges I attended or taught at who seemed unconcerned about doing homework, attending classes, and generally performing the duties of your average academic. Why? Because they felt they didn't have to. They were going to become professional athletes. This was their ticket to the NBA, NFL, etc. It didn't seem to matter to them that the school may have been 'under the radar.' They were a medium-sized fish in a tiny pond, but they were sure they were going to get noticed. It used to be that college sports provided a way for athletically talented students to get an education. These days, it seems that the education is secondary or tertiary at best, and that college is seen as nothing more than a gateway to the pros. That obviously leads to a lot of disappointed and disillusioned young people.

It is interesting to note that at least materially blacks are worse off the blacker the society is and better off the whiter the society is. The poorest blacks in the world live in Africa and Haiti which have almost no whites. Blacks in mixed race countries such as South Africa, Cape Verde, the Dominican Republic, or Brazil are better off than their African counterparts, while American blacks are the wealthiest in the world. Africans would love to immigrate to America. I don't know of many American blacks who want to immigrate to Africa.

Richar Prior went to Africa and when he came back he said "thank God for slavery". Of course slavery was a terrible institution and American blacks have suffered a lot, but the fact is that the quality of life and especially opportunities available to American blacks is infinitely greater than that of the average African.

Since throwing off the yoke of colonialist oppression and being governed by fellow Africans, Africa has only gone down hill. I should know since I have lived in Nigeria. South Africa with its white minority is the power economic power house of Africa. Before the whites were driven off their farms in Zimbabwe that country was a relative success story in Africa. Now it is just another African basket case. Even the ex-French colonies in West Africa have or had some decent hotels and businesses because the French never really left their excolonies and continued to "manage" them indirectly.

In 1950 Africa was a place of hope and opportunity with effective governments and successful minorities (European, Indian, Lebanese...) running successful businesses. Most of them have left or been driven out and now the continent is mired in hopeless corruption, poverty, crime, unrest, etc.

For those of you who are so upset about affirmative action, I hope the fact that George W. got into Yale with an unacceptable SAT score (thank you Daddy and Grandaddy!) angers you just as much.

When was a 1200 SAT score deemed "unacceptable"?

It must be nice to sit back in your easy chairs and philosophize about who is responsible for the catastrophic condition of blacks in this country today.

The fact is that the United States government sanctioned the kidnapping and enslavement of human beings based on their skin color. For almost 100 years the government colluded with kidnappers as these people were forced into labor, they could be beaten and maimed at the whim of the kidnappers, the women could be repeatedly raped with impunity, their children could be taken from them and sold to other kidnappers for a life of humiliations and exploitation. If some were lucky enough to escape from this living hell, our government would assist the kidnappers in tracking them down and returning them to enslavement.

After the Civil War, the south perpetrated a government-approved apartheid system that prevented most blacks from voting, holding office, attending decent schools, or even shopping or eating in many public establishments. In the north, the racism was less institutionalized and less violent, but was de facto a decimating force on the black community there as they were segregated in ghettos and excluded from positions of influence. All done without any action from the United States government to prevent it!

Although the civil rights movement of the early 60s finally granted blacks permission to participate fully in the American experience, no tools were provided. After centuries of laws that allowed them to have the fruits of their labor stolen, to be deprived of education, to be cut out of participation in politics and government - don't you think the government needs to do a little more than simply say "okay, we'll stop all the bad things we've been doing, but you're on your own now.'

Unfortunately, the United States government’s misguided "War on Poverty" did not provide the tools for success, but rather continued the destruction of black communities and black families with its emphasis on welfare and dependency.

Blacks are real people, not a bunch of statistics. It pains me to read some of these posts with their witty repartees. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a statistician to see the disastrous conditions most blacks suffer in this country. Take a ride in car. Look out the window. Hurricane Andrew's destruction in south Florida looks positively benign compared to what the United States government has done to blacks over the last two hundred years.

This government must take some responsibility for what it's done and take the necessary actions to reverse the damage. But what can they do? Affirmative action that is aimed at promoting education in black communities, providing work experience, and developing business enterprise zones is the right kind of war on poverty. You want blacks to quit whining and blaming others? You want them to take responsibility and step up to the plate? Then give them the tools and quit whining about "reverse discrimination" every time they admit they need some extra help.

For you Democrats out there... See what your "BOY" Kerry is doing to help empowering African-Americans. He's doing SQUAT. Not only that, but he's in cahoots with the NEA and NAACP in oppressing the very people they are suppose to be supporting.

Kerry is the BIGGEST hypocrite of them all! (That's for you, Deb.) He's FOR vouchers (a program which offers vouchers to underprivileged and poor African Americas to attend private schools) in 1998. BUT, on his recent ASS-KISSING visit to the NAACP in Phila, he's begging for money from the NEA. (BTW, NAACP and NEA are AGAINST vouchers of any type, and even fired a fellow NAACP chapter president in Colorado for publicly supporting vouchers. In other words, if you don't follow that group, *LEFT* metality, you will be purged! So, it's either assimiliate or die.)

Kerry panders to every organization for which he speaks, yet lives a life of complete and utter hypocrisy by driving big, gas-guzzling cars, and sending his own kids to private schools. Give me break..

I highly urge everyone to read to this article to completion:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14258

For those of you who do not care to educate yourselves and pass up reading this article of TRUTH, well then I guess you just love being a moron.

I'm not a Kerry supporter, Kristina, but come on! I read the article referenced by your link. Please, let's get real.

Kerry uses the line “Let America Be America Again” that comes from a poem whose author had a colleague that moved to Ghana which was ruled by a Marxist-leaning government? And what's the point here? Is this a new takeoff on "how many jumps to Kevin Bacon"?

Let's evaluate Kerry and Bush on their policies, not the "political correctness" of their taste in poetry.

Get Serious,

Did you honestly read the article in its entirety? There are two pages, you know. If so, are you to say that you're only comment is a quote by Kerry? Boy. You really missed the crux of the message.

These three organizations: NAACP, NEA, and the Democratic Party are funding eachother (they all have their hands in eachother's pockets) without genuinely representing a class of people they are purported to represent. For example, more than 70% of African Americans support vouchers (http://www.insightmag.com/global_user_elements/printpage.cfm?storyid=447800). They WANT it. But these organizations, working together, are opposed to it, and even *fire* their own constituents when they publicly step up and stray from the NAACP's group-think mentality.

You don't have any issue with that? What if you were fired from your current employer because you were outspoken about something in which you believed? Is that just?? Wouldn't you feel like somebody up above is trying to silence you?!

My point is that these groups, the NAACP, NEA and the Democratic Party have a specific agenda which is to keep THEMSELVES in power (and wealthy). That's it. They have no interest in empowering a group of individuals which so desperately need to be empowered. The NEA accept large amounts of money from government grants and private donations, yet these kids never see it. Where is the surplus money going? If there is so much money to go around, then why are schools deteriorating? Why is the NEA spending so much on political campaigning? Why does it have a full-time staff dedicated to campaigning???? Why do they reward themselves $100K+ salaries yet the average teacher makes under $50K? Shouldn't its primary focus be uplifting educational institutions and supplying the necessary funds to educate our youth? Comon. That doesn't bother you in the least? Your only comment is on Kerry's "Let America Be America Again??" WOW.

How about this statement:

"The NEA is very "pro-choice," supporting abortion with "no government limits," but it zealously fights to deny parents any choice concerning their children’s schools."

What's your reaction? If you were a poor parent living in the ghetto and had the opportunity to send your children to a private school, would you? Of course! No doubt! Inner city schools are decaying rapidly. If you had the chance, you would. BUT the NEA and the NAACP and the Democratic Party are fighting tooth and nail to see that your underprivileged and uneducated children STAY underprivileged and uneducated. They contribute to the "dumbing down" of America because only dumb people will buy into their message with no questions ask. When you do begin to question, you see what happens to you...

Any comment on that? There, I've summarized for you a long, two page article which has virtually NOTHING to do with a quote from some poetry...

I suggest you read both pages of article, and come back with something a little more than a line taken from a poem.... Otherwise don't waste my time with nonsense comments.

Practical Solutions Needed,

I don't want to beat dead horse here, but I will...

How is Affirmative Action aimed at promoting education in black communities?

I do agree that providing work experience or investing in minority-founded businesses (rather than offering welfare) is a viable solution to empower the economically downtrodden.

But, please explain how lowering the standards based on ethnicity (which essentially is Affirmative Action) helps the individual in the long-run....

And, if you feel that Affirmative Action is a successful program, then why are there still so many African Americans disenfranchised??

WHITE women have benefited from affirmative action more than any other group, so please stop focusing on other minorities while completely ignoring the main benefactor of AA. You mention welfare, well GUESS WHAT, there are more WHITE PEOPLE on welfare than blacks. God, some of you people remind me of the airheaded imbeciles I encountered during my college days. Especially some of who have encoutered a handful of blacks in your lifetime, and yet feel those few encounters qualify you to make a general statement regarding the black population in general. What a joke.........

Kristina,

Thanks for pointing out how poorly the government has approached the concept of affirmative action to date. Hopefully, nothing in my earlier comments could be construed as praising the past and current policies of the government.

The answer to your question "How is Affirmative Action aimed at promoting education in black communities?" is that it hasn't been. And this was really my point. The government needs to change it's palliative measures and initiate truly effective actions to correct the damage it has directly imposed on a whole segment of our citizenry.

Lowering standards based on ethnicity, as you pointed out, would cause even more harm. But how about instituting free after-school tutoring programs for children that need help and show a motivation to learn? How about enrichment programs that take low-income children from these decimated neighborhoods into environments they would never otherwise experience? How about ensuring that every black child that meets the threshhold of ability to complete a college education, gets one? How about outreach clinics that teach basic business management to aspiring entrepneurs that want to create neighborhood-owned businesses? How about government matching the funds that these budding entrepeneurs invest in their businesses?

My premise is that our government stole (or permitted others to steal) the fruits of a whole people's labor based on their color. They created laws that deprived these people of an education - starting with making it illegal to teach a slave to read and culminating with the governors of several states standing in front of universities with ax handles swearing that no nigger would ever defile their institutions. This is not all ancient history - it happened to people alive today.

Now, poverty for anyone is tragic and should be corrected. I have singled out black people for "special treatment" by the government for only one reason: it was the "special treatment" by the government that created the conditions that currently exists. Our government owes it to these same people to take some steps to correct the situation. "The Great Society" welfare system just made the problem worse. Some aspects of "affrimative action" have improved the situation, but others have been detrimental. Both have, to some degree, just increased dependency on the "charity" of the government.

To use a cliche, I suggest "teaching them to fish", not "handing them more fish". I do not advocate handouts or dumbing down the system. I am calling for assisting people, victims of our governments past actions, to become self-sufficient productive members of our society. After almost two centuries of actively stripping them of this ability, it is the only "practical" thing to do.

Unless, of course, you have better positive suggestions. If so, in all seriousness, I would like to hear them.

When was a 1200 SAT score deemed "unacceptable"?

At Yale? Ages ago, I'm sure. Regardless, Yale (like the other Ivies, and many other colleges) gives affirmative action based not on race, but on nepotism. The student whose parents went to Yale has an unearned boost over an equally qualified student whose parents didn't.

This is usually justified by the money alumni give schools--apparently we have principles about how admissions should be merit-based, but we're willing to whore them out.

It's great to see that African Americans are finally getting deeply suspicious of so-called "black organizations" such as NAACP.

However, more than mere head-scratching is warranted when a trial lawyer and an MIA (voting) Senator are up for president. I did a little research on his second rich wife. HJ Heinz is THE largest global corporation dealing with all aspects of food, including near takeover of the health food industry. While Bush is married to a sweet librarian.

If people don't see this ticket for what it is--and demand real people in the future, only the richest of the rich will be eligible for office.

Whenever Kerry or others point out health care crisis ad nauseum I ask "Where the hell were you Clinton and the Dems had 8 years to fix this?"

Be wary of any candidate who says anything so negative about a group of people in public. I don't care what the reason given. You know it serves only self-aggrandizement when he can offer no solution. it is merely fodder for the not-so-diverse media.

They need to look in the mirror. It is the laws the Kerrys and the Edwards passed and trial lawyers who put black men in prison in the first place!

Snoppy

Dear writers,

If Kerry cared about education why not free, relevant adult education? That's where I see the gap. Those who are destined for university will get there. But what about the others?

Oh BTW I taught in a 99% urban black school. There is less money spent on things like computers, Internet, books, resources and the like, don't kid yourself. When I arrived in '97 the teachers had not one computer in the classroom. And the students do notice the difference. They get to compare this when they play sports at other big high schools here in Texas where the rich white high schools look like resorts!

However, Big money does go to BIC and special Ed from the Feds. I agree with the poster who noted it is not moneying issues but parenting issues. My former school built a new science wing. What did the kids do? destroy the bathrooms the first day.

One solution: educate the folks who "graduate" high school (and dropouts); have babies on their own, and proceed to set up household. They don't have a clue as to what they are doing or supposed to be doing.

It should be "No parent left behind!" I believe we need relevant and free adult education for those who'll never see another classroom otherwise. America does not need cultural appreciation or PC classes at any level. This is Communist propaganda in origin--this IS deliberate dumbing-down curriculum. Can free thinkers be created using the tools of indoctrination?

Parents don't know their job is to train children at home--so they are fit to be seen and heard by others. Parental involvement and education is the only key to unlock that jail.

Snoppy

PS: I am African American.

Snoppy,

I very much like what you said about relevant and free adult education. What specific topics do think should be covered? What forum and format should be used? Most importantly, how would you realistically use these to attract people to attend these classes - especially if they have already seen education as being so irrelevant or so burdensome that they have dropped out of high school? In your opinion, how could education be made more relevant earlier, so that more children would see a benefit in completing their high school education?

Here in my neighborhood, we have a very small underfunded non-government program that epitomizes what I consider to be good "affirmative action". It is designed to reach out to highly motivated disadvantaged children and prepare them for a university education. It is not aimed only at racial minorities, but specifically recognizes the disadvantages of situations such as having no other family members with a college education or of being a non-native-English-speaking first generation immigrant to this country. It requires a commitment by the child to attend regular tutoring after school, to attend some intensive weekend classes, and to attend classes for most of the summer. Besides academic tutoring, the program offers enrichment programs that take the kids on educational field trips. It also provides transportation and funds so that high school seniors in the program can visit remote college campuses firsthand to assess them as potential choices. I want to emphasize that only the most highly motivated children participate in this program. If any student fails to meet their commitment, they are dismissed from the program immediately. The program "guarantees" that any child keeping their commitment will be accepted into a university, and it does everything necessary to ensure their success.

This program, however, leaves behind all those disadvantaged children who lack the self-esteem or the role models that would enable them to aspire to a university education. Reaching their parents, as you suggested, is one very good avenue. I am looking for practical ways to accomplish this, as well as for suggestions of ways to reach more kids directly. Once they’ve given up and dropped out, it’s very difficult to bring them back.

Because this program is not government-funded, it can only accept a very limited number of participants every year. Each applicant is required to submit an essay explaining their goals and their commitment to achieving them. They are further screened by a panel of interviewers (composed of the counselors and teachers that will be working with them) and then admitted on the basis of their need and their commitment to success. There are many more applicants each year than the number that can be accommodated. If the government were to provide funds for this type of program, I believe far fewer deserving disadvantaged children would be left behind.

Practical_solutions_needed,

I just read your reply. I got the idea from a course I attended at a local Christian university which has a good reputation. I have pasted your questions here to try to answer them:

I very much like what you said about relevant and free adult education.

Thank you.

What specific topics do think should be covered?

The course I took was to allow adults, young adults, to get through college without having to take the same science the majors take. It was biology-based.

But I would change it to be more in line with preventative medicine. One does not have to be an M.D. to do this. There are degrees at the master's level in preventive medicine, or one can have a biology degree, teaching credentials and/or medical background. I have the latter three.

What forum and format should be used?

That's a good question because part of the course was to teach biology teachers a style of teaching (which I was familiar with) but pairing it up with internet labs (again I've done this) and lectures (my mainstain) for our classroom. But the unique thing is that all these models were combined in order to get the most effective learning and participation from the class.

In terms of hardware--here's what you would need to get started i.e. grant money: Powerpoint and projector (they have different names but cost about 2K), computer for teacher, course lectures, handouts for students (lots of copying here), classroom, access to a computer lab, relevant videos, assessments (optional if not for credit). These are the basic things. Oh, and an appropriate teacher and salary.

Most importantly, how would you realistically use these to attract people to attend these classes - especially if they have already seen education as being so irrelevant or so burdensome that they have dropped out of high school?

OK, another good question. I would try to attract: working adults, those with children (single or married), highly motivated (GED at least), and those thinking about a career in allied health. For those who dropped out because of learning disabilities, they need one-on-one tutoring and this class would not be helpful to them.

The successful student would not really have to have more than 2 years of high school in order to get something out of the course. Otherwise you would have to dumb it down so much that no one would find it relevant.

In your opinion, how could education be made more relevant earlier, so that more children would see a benefit in completing their high school education?

Ah, that's why I recommend these types of courses, they could be tailor-made for any area (such as nutrition, exercise etc.) but really aimed at adults who have small children. I feel that the main difference between black and white children is what they hear, or don't hear at home. We don't have the resources in many cases.

White parents interact and talk to their children more about everything. Whereas black children are allowed to raise themselves with little helpful adult interaction. I think young parents just don't know they are supposed to be teaching their kids something at home. They leave the job almost entirely up to the schools! Or worse they have no knowledge to pass on, so they think.

It does not take a genius or a parent, but it does take an adult to give a child some direction in life. This is what I don't see happening in the lives of inner-city youths (blacks and Hispanics).

Snoppy

Kerry not only lied on African Americans but he left out one important fact: their huge participation in the Vietnam war.

I have been reading RFK's impact on black people in America up until his assassination in 1968. It is fascinating. And in one section RFK made note and speeches about the fact that while at the time blacks were 11% of the population (1960's) they made up 22% of the men dying in the Vietnamese war!!! And what of our participation since? Has he mentioned that?

This is a startling fact and one which RFK picked up on and put into his agenda to address. Black servicemen wrote him letters (in bad English) pouring out their hearts to him on the rate of death among black soldiers in the Cong.

I had no idea RFK became so beloved by blacks. Really far more so than JFK. Many thought he would replace King in their hearts despite his not being black. What's more his liberal rating was always 100%. That's shocking in a way but this is based on the butter-and-guns model. Those who have high liberal ratings want more domestic good (butter), those who want war (less domestic issues) are considered conservative. This is a simplification, but you get my drift.

Kerry too has a liberal rating, but he is no RFK! In fact this country may never see another of the caliber of RFK.

If you don't believe me read chapter 8 in the book "In His Own Right: The political odyssey of Senator Robert F. Kennedy" by Joseph A. Palermo. It will bring tears to your eyes, no kidding. The author juxtaposes him with MLK, civil rights for blacks, their roles, and naturally his support by Martin L. King--who BTW rejected the NAACP when they rejected RFK. Recommended reading.

Snoppy

well frist of all there happens to be a lot of African Americans in jail.Also they appear to be in there because they get accused for everything, people today don't care what black people have to say. white people not trying to be racist but they never been through what we black African Americans had to go through, they got everything handed to them us, we had to work and earn what we had to get and try to make a living with $3.50 and provided for us and the family. Now us black people are trying to surive a war that we must look to God for the help. Us black people have been beat on used up and yeah there are white "caucasions" who have almost been through the things we been through or clam to have gone through the things us black people went through, but there not gonna ever no the true meaning of fighting or standing up to try to leave a life without hate, racisist, or anyother form of evilness

After watching the first debate, I realized something that John Kerry, John Edwards, M. Moore, the DNC, and most liberals don't understand. They don't understand that when Bush talks about invading Iraq because of 911, he DOES NOT MEAN WE INVADED IRAQ IN REVENGE FOR 911!!!!! WHEN WILL THEY GET IT????

We invaded Iraq AS A RESULT OF FOREIGN POLICY CHANGES FORCED BY 911!!!!!


HERE IS A SIMPLE EXAMPLE...

Imagine you are principle of a high school. You come out of the building and your car has been spray painted with graffiti.
As principle, you would probably do a few things in response to the act of vandalism.

1) Search for the student that did it (War in Afghanistan, search for Bin Laden)
2) Make a new school policy of no markers and no spray paint allowed, and no student access to the faculty parking lot (Patriot Act)
3) Search the lockers of problem students who are on probation or have been caught vandilizing before (UN Inspections of Iraq)
4) Suspend or expel the particular problem students who refuse to permit their lockers to be searched (Iraq War)

Simple enough?

The high school principal wouldn't catch the student responsible and then turn him over to his buddies like Bush did with Bin Laden.
911 didn't force any changes in foreign policy, the Iraq act of aggression was a choice not a requirement or mandate to start policing the world. Bush acted like a teenager in need of anger management...he just wanted to hurt someone, anyone...hey why not pick on "my daddy's old enemy who just happens to have significant oil reserves." Granted, the whole thing has blown up in his face...few Iraqis seem to see us as liberators. We cannot afford 1000+ lives and 200 billion dollars to overthrow every world leader we don't care for...even the ones that have substantial oil reserves. How can anyone justify this mess. The only reason we aren't talking about a draft is that would be political suicide.....it ceertainly isn't a military decision.

this is a message from Europe:

Please
stop bush stop bush stop bush

your leadership affects everyone on this planet, think about it:stopbush

http://flexo.blogia.com

tell us your opinion

if you think that this is political crap we are sorry for bother you
thank u

I'm white and I was surprisedand mad when I heard this. I know many African-American people either destined for, or in college already. Kerry must nost have had his brain turned on, because a lot of black people happen to be VOTERS.

I'm white and I was surprised and mad when I heard this. I know many African-American people either destined for, or in college already. Kerry must nost have had his brain turned on, because a lot of black people happen to be VOTERS.

Imagine you are a high school student (not the principal - unless some divine intervention has appointed you as being in charge of the world). You go home and find your own house has been spray painted with graffiti.

As a member of the community, you would probably do a few things in response to the act of vandalism.

1) Search for the person that did it, kick in the door where your suspect may be living, evict his parents, take ownership of the house, put some new foster parents in charge of the house, then leave before the actual culprit could be found (War in Afghanistan, search for Bin Laden)

2) Tell your own family that they can no longer have markers or spray paint, start tailing your sister whenever she goes to the store, read everybody else's mail, fingerprint all visitors from selected parts of town, put spy cameras in the living room, and bug your brother's room (Patriot Act)

3) Ignore the principal and school board when they tell you that they are in the process of searching the lockers of problem students who are on probation or have been caught vandalizing before (UN Inspections of Iraq)

4) Kick in the door at the house of one of the problem students who is reluctantly permitting their locker to be searched again, shoot a few of his family members, torture a few of his relatives, take ownership of the house, put some new foster parents in charge of the house, search the student's empty locker, and imprison him for mistreating members of his own family [not for having spray paint or vandalizing your house] (Iraq War)

5) Ridicule the principal and school board as "being irrelevant", tell off the students that wouldn't help you break into the second student's house, ignore the other students in the high school known to actually have spray paint and to have trained "graffiti artists" in the past, put up different color-coded signs in your house every couple of weeks to scare your sister and brother, spend most of your time and resources trying to fix things at the second house you took over instead of looking for the student that actually vandalized your house in the first place (current administration policy).

Simple enough?

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