my experience gives me no clue as to whether you can fence off an entire population, and from people who have seen the fence, they say it is pretty pathetic in terms of security, but let's just say it works and it does separate the more radical pals in the west bank from any jews. I think you then have a state of normalcy that could endure until new leadership amoung the pals arise. If the fence brought down the terror to say "only" 100 dead israelis a year, which is awful but a blessing compared to the slaughter since 2000, what need is there for a peace plan. you have separated from the arabs, you no longer occupy large portions of the west bank, and as for outlying settlements, the arabs will not attack those, they do not want those cruddy hilltops. can it be that simple?

I feel the time will come that the only solution to the radical Muslim problem will be to separate them from the civilized world with some fence,barrier or wall.And that is the more humane of the alternative solutions.

"End chances for a Middle East peace," eh Yasser? Does that mean you'll declare war if the wall is ever finished? Is that a threat or a promise?

Because if it's a threat, it's a pretty empty threat. Particularly since you and everyone else knows that open war would reduce you and your population to a red smudge visible from space.

This fence is going to deprive Arafat from terrorizing Israel - his last and only weapon.
His histerical pitch will increase with the percentage of the completion of the fence.

When I heard terrorist-huggers whining about the fence "cutting deep into the heart" of the West Bank, I pictured like half of Judea and Sumaria. I thought they might have a point. But then I Googled for a map of the fence, I was really surprised at how little of the West Bank was actually cut out. If it were your neighbor building a fence, it would be like, four inches over your property line in one or two sports, by comparison. Annoying, but something you could live with... especially if he only had to build the fence because your dog was crapping in his yard.

Shark and others you need to read Allison Kaplan Sommers topic on the the "Peacenicks Being Dissappointed at Geneva" She translates parts of an article from an Israeli paper, Yehidot Arinot (spelling whatever) on what actually occured at Oslo, the farce and joke the Arab "moderates" there made of their "brave Israeli partners" for """ Peace """.

A MUST READ.
But Head Heeb, Edelstein, isn't deterred, his feelings agree to this unreal travesty of concessions by the Israelis anyway. We'll worry about the potential consequences after we've given everything even the water, Mount, overflights, Efrat, Ariel, uprooted all settlements, Jerualem and still haven't gotten a concrete giving up of "Right of Return" or "End of Conflict" from the other side. A GREAT NEGOTIATOR HE'D BE.

By the way besides stating that they used this to divide the Israeli public, one of the "moderates" also admitted that even Beilin couldn't agree to this if he was Prime Minister. Perhaps, he's overestimating Beilin though.

Mike

Shark and others you need to read Allison Kaplan Sommers topic on the the "Peacenicks Being Dissappointed at Geneva" She translates parts of an article from an Israeli paper, Yehidot Arinot (spelling whatever) on what actually occured at Oslo, the farce and joke the Arab "moderates" there made of their "brave Israeli partners" for """ Peace """.

A MUST READ.
But Head Heeb, Edelstein, isn't deterred, his feelings agree to this unreal travesty of concessions by the Israelis anyway. We'll worry about the potential consequences after we've given everything even the water, Mount, overflights, Efrat, Ariel, uprooted all settlements, Jerualem and still haven't gotten a concrete giving up of "Right of Return" or "End of Conflict" from the other side. A GREAT NEGOTIATOR HE'D BE.

By the way besides stating that they used this to divide the Israeli public, one of the "moderates" also admitted that even Beilin couldn't agree to this if he was Prime Minister. Perhaps, he's overestimating Beilin though.

Mike

http://www.peacenow.org/Roadmap/barriermap.jpeg supopsedly contains the latest map. It looks like it leaves the Caananites with about 3/5th of the West Bank.

If my dog is crapping in your yard, Matt, you can ask me to stop, or even try to capture or kill my dog. But you better not build a fence on my property.

Every night, Arafat goes to sleep smiling, knowing that the "occupation" and the "fence" are the best things that could happen for him. They increase sympathy for the Palestinians, let him off the hook to do anything for them, and he can pocket all the money. Also, it is a tremendous expenditure of Israeli money, men, and materials.

Also, why is no one mentioning the fence on the American-Mexican border, and the difficulty and humiliation of the Mexicans when they try to get into the US?

Well, "Markus", if your dog was doing nothing more than crapping in my yard, you might have a point.

If your dog was killing my children, I'll do whatever I can to prevent that from happening again and I'll deal with your claims of "property rights" at a later time.

Jed -- regarding the conflation of US/Mexican border check with Israeli/Palestinian ones: my understanding is that many of the checkpoints that make Palestinians so angry involve Palestinians going between Palestinian population centers, not into Israel. They are being stopped to facilitate the travel needs and the security needs of the settlers.

Shark -- like I've said before, ISRAEL SHOULD KILL TERRORISTS and Israel should have built a wall around unannexed territies sometime in the late sixties.

somehow, i bet markus rose's definition of a terrorist would not let Israel kill anyone. Interesting his outlook on the canaanites being the palestinians, i have not heard that one since the days of hatem bazian at Cal.

More specifically, Israel has a right to kill known members of terrorist groups that participate in terror operations, or that have done so in the past and are likely to do so in the future.

My definition of current and former terrorists and their supporters is actually quite broad, ranging from Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Yassir Arafat to Menachim Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.

Markus if you would hold any credibility calling the Pal's Caananites shows you not to have any, to put it 'mildly' let's just say.

If my memory serves correct? didn't Begin grow up in Europe and when the Nazis came to his town he was a little boy. He was in the woods getting something and when he came back he found his entire family murdered by them in the house. He then made his way eventually during the war into Palestine?

My comparison of the Arabs of Palestine to the ancient enemies of the Jews was tongue in cheek. Actually, I think I read it first on a Meir Kahane website.

The jewish virtual library's profile of Begin mentions nothing about the Nazis coming to town, either when he was a little boy (he was born in 1913) or later.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/begin.html

Your equation of Menahem Begin and Ahmed Yassin is brilliant, Markus. Maybe your definition of "terrorist" is broad enough to include, say, George Washington and Dwight Eisenhower?

I'm catagorizing, not equating, Shark. My definition of terrorism is basically limited, I think, to those who deliberately attack noncombatants. In that regard, Truman, Churchill would be terrorists. I'm not sure about George Washington, but I think Eisenhower is probably cool.

The link at the bottom is to an interesting letter to New York Times from 1948 from Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, Hannah Arendt and many other intellectuals I don't know but you and others probably do. An excerpt:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine. The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm

I have grave doubts about the efficacy of the fence, from a security viewpoint. I suspect that being on the ground ('in occupation') is the most effective way to to prevent attacks. But since being there is so objectionable, a fence is a less effective defensive measure. Since it means pulling out, it should be less unacceptable; that doesn't appear to be the case. Surprise!

On the other hand, I am really glad that the fence, tho' moveable, encroaches beyond the '67 line. It is the first signal that terror tactics might have a real cost--in land. I was pleased to read that Sharon had warned the Palestinians to the effect that "our patience is not inexhaustable". I'm even happier to note that Arafat is squealing about the fence. This appears to be the first sign of hope in decades.

I'm starting to like this blog.
Arlene -
No matter what Israel does there is a side benefit to Arafat. When you are that cynical and malevolent especially in regards to your own people (like the portrayal of the English King in Braveheart) there are always advantages to any move Israel makes. For instance, having to build a fence displays a form of weakness interpreted as such in Middle East lands, when the cameras are off.

To Markus -

1) I know one of the famous Israeli leaders I thought had that experience? I may have stories confused though. It may have been someone my pops met 30 years ago from a distant cousin whose story was that? and he joined the Stern Gang, called something else in Hebrew.

2)The Albert Einstein letter is an overuse infamous one at the Indyidiots sites as well as their fascist neo-nazi sister sites. I read one that he wrote and then later was refuted by his own later writings. I don't remember the whole scenario anymore though. However, I know that the letter, and this may be a different one, was misleading in its sole context in regards to later letters he wrote.

Also, tongue in cheek or not, the Canaanite comment is plain stupid, and it doesn't make you look sarcastically intelligent, as I'm sure you think it does in your own head, it makes you look like an indyidiot moron......... but that's just my opinion.

Mike

My main goal of my political writings is the hopeless task of planting as much confusion and doubt as possible in the minds everyone with strong political convictions(prejudices)of every sort. The line between wisdom and stupidity, truth and falsehood goes through each person's heart, and the sooner we all realize this the better. If you know of any pro-Palestinian webblogs that I could post at, let me know, so I can call attention to their idiocies too.

Did anyone read that last post by Markus?
On a scale of 1 - 10 how much self patronizing flatulated ego do you think he displays?
How much self flatulating assumed overimporance?
How much just plain idiocy?

I think you should go to Indymedia your idiocy and lunacy is perfectly suited for them.
Best of luck to you.

Mike -- i admit that last post i wrote yesterday does look pretentious this morning. I'll check out Indymedia, I am not familiar with it.

Your response to my 'Caananite' comment is uncalled for.

Also -- any actual evidence that the above letter that Einstein signed in 1948 contradicts other things he wrote or signed would be appreciated, as would any evidence that that his characterization of Irgun Zvai Leumi as a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization, and Tnuat Haherut, precursor to Likud, as a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties...

My main goal of my political writings is the hopeless task of planting as much confusion and doubt as possible in the minds everyone with strong political convictions(prejudices)of every sort. The line between wisdom and stupidity, truth and falsehood goes through each person's heart, and the sooner we all realize this the better. If you know of any pro-Palestinian webblogs that I could post at, let me know, so I can call attention to their idiocies too.

markus
www.marxists.org...? Credibility???

Dead Ed -- I found the link to the letter doing a google search. I'm not a marxist, and I don't believe that many of the people signing the letter were either. Unfortunately, I can't afford access to lexis-nexus database that would have allowed me to access a New York Times letter to the editor from December 1948, and the NYT itself doesn't go back that far online.