someone posted about this already at one of the other blogs, not a very complete one but basically said the full story about this didn't come out, and it would be like Ramsey Clark and 3 other similars bashing Bush's policies. All 4 were devout Laborites or Meretz supporters I believe.

If you email me maybe I'll find the link.

Mike

Are Shin Bet heads political appointees, or have their careers involved actually performing intelligence functions?

Stefan,

Here's a link to Jerusalem Post's comments on the four musketiers:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1068974829350&p=1006953079865

I heard a short news story on this on the BBC world radio news a few days ago. One of the guys spoke in English and gave the usual dovish, "give the Palestinians something for nothing or they will never trust us" line. I, too, wondered about the provenance of their Shin Bet credentials after hearing that report...

Shazam! Sounds like the Demoncrats have been busy in Israel. Their brain-numbing rays have caused some of our allies to completely lose their common-effin'-sense. I don't live there, but I don't think that it's necessary to habituate zones of terror to recognize the fact that the other faction in the region strives for nothing less than the total annihilation of the Jews. And I ain't Jewish...it's terribly disingenuous for these 4 goobers to adopt the US Demoncrat tactic of apology and pacification. Somebody tell Denny that a bitch-slapping is in order!

Steve

Here are some other links.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=52858

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1068795344358&p=1008596981749

I look forward to your comments, Mr. Shark

There are a couple of factors at play here.

If you want to look at this thing from a completely cynical and political viewpoint, you can see that of the four former GSS chiefs, Ami Ayalon is identified with the left and is pushing his own peace initiative with Sari Nusseibeh, and Carmi Gilon is identified with the Labor Party.

However, I think that the statements given by the Shin Bet heads go beyond pure politics. I think they do give voice to a lot of uneasiness in Israel about Sharon's policies. Although I think there's widespread support for his tough line against Arafat and his terror goons, there's also the feeling that the PM doesn't have any end game in mind, that he's doing nothing but trying to put out fires.

Hovering over this is the fear -- and I think this is the main point that the Shin Bet heads are trying to make -- that if Israel doesn't come up with some kind of solution to the Territories, then the Palestinians will start to call for a binational state and then use their eventual demographic advantage to push us into the sea.

To answer Insufficiently Sensitive's question, Shin Bet heads are generally appointed from within the intelligence community or from the higher ranks of the IDF. All four of the men in question are definitely guys who have had hands-on intelligence work and know the situation in the field. I think it would be a mistake to dismiss their comments out of hand.

THE ENEMIES OF DEMOCRACY: ISLAMOFASCISM, JUDEOFASCISM AND CHRISTIANOFASCISM

Thanks to the desperate, failing war on "terror" vindicated by an "ideological" clique made up of hysteric neocons mixed with oil-smelling corporate satraps & poorly waged by the pathetic George II The Appointed -a caricatural christianofascist, everybody's aware of islamofascism, ie: Oussama & Co.

However not everybody realises that judeofascism is islamofascism's perfect double. In the youess, for instance, judeofascism is not even identified by the average youessan due to massive bushist brainwashing delivered by Pravda-like media: FoxNews, CNN & al.

Still the threat is known to France which has been the victim of a fastidious, two-year smear campaign pretending this country was the latest embodiment of nazism raised from the dead.

The slander has been pervertedly articulated thanks to false assumptions & naked forgery. True there have been SOME anti-Semitic acts of violence on the French territory, almost all of them related to Palestine-Israel-patterned hatred imported from the Middle East over to France's muslim & jewish communities. That kind of radicalisation HITTING BOTH SIDES is conjectural by nature: it will disappear once Palestine is given its elementary status & rights in compliance with UN resolution n° 181 (29 November 1947) (1), among an endless litany of similar resolutions.

First bit of intellectual dishonesty displayed by France-hating judeofascists: anti-Semitic violence only is worth their selective indignation, not racist violence as a whole & certainly not anti-Arab or anti-muslim violence. Closed-up in their bigotry, judeofascists won't hesitate to count all kinds of alleged disputes reported by angry neighbours or jealous competitors as a deed of anti-Semitism, as long as the "plaintiff" claims to be jewish… Anti-Arab acts of violence perpetrated by radicalised jews is of no interest, of course. It goes without saying that acts of violence are an Arab or muslim monopoly. Far-right jewish militias as the Betar (2) are not denounced, not even mentioned.

Even more vicious is the odious amalgam aiming at making any Palestine supporters feel "guilty" of anti-Semitism. Anyone who sincerely thinks that it is the lack of a Palestinian State (for Atheist, christian & muslim Arabs) is the very root of intercommunitarian tensions, is automatically deemed to use a convenient alibi to spit out their anti-Semitic pulsions. If a Palestine supporter happens to be jewish or originates from a jewish background, then the guy is a "self-hating" jew !!! If a Palestine supporter happens to be an Israeli, then the guy is a traitor... One dare not think about a synagogue-going Israeli who'd be advocating a Palestinian State…The Union des juifs français pour la paix (French jews united for peace), a French jewish, Palestine-supporting organisation, are fought with ultimate adamancy before they could actually advocate their ideas; they are systematically attacked by the self-appointed ayatollahs of the most extreme fringe of the French jewish community. Even worse: Eyal Sivan, a French jewish, Palestine-supporting film-maker, was sent a 22-mm bullet in an envelope with a letter reading: "the next one won't be sent by mail" !!! French jewish extremists -called sharognards in France (sharognard is homophonous with charognard, ie: carrion-eater ("carrionard"), vulture etc) due to Sharon's credentials as a mass-murderer- feel now forced into ever increasing violence (verbal & physical) as the world finally acknowledge Israel's foreign policy to be what it is: an uhuman occupation of Palestine & a very ominous portent for world peace (3).

Paradox: pointing out that neo-anti-Semitism DOES originate from Sharonist EQUATION of judaism with Israeli foreign policy, SHALL have you stigmatised by judeofascists as they refuse to acknowledge that their VERY behaviour is reinforcing that EQUATION. The most ridiculous instance of that paradox was brought by Jean Khan -a former head of the CRIF (Conseil représentatif des institutions juives de France: Representative council of France's jewish institutions)- as he demanded that any French jews "should identify themselves to Israel" (4) !!! No less… Israel's colonial policy in Palestine must therefore neither be questioned nor even debated.

More witch-hunting: since "hippies", "leftists", "socialists" & "communists" are "the only ones" daring to claim that Israel's policy in Palestine is a colonial one, then anyone disagreeing with ultralibéralisme in French (read: neoconservatism in English) is necessarily anti-Semitic. As a "consequence", any greens, altermondialistes (another-world-is-possible activists), socialists & communists are labelled anti-jewish or jew-haters. Nice ideological wizardry, isn't it? Now christianofascists (Bush) & judeofascists (Arab-haters, Francophobes, Europhobes etc) stand united in a new form of Stalinian McCarthyism.

Welcome to the twenty-first century.

(1) UN resolution n° 181 - 29 November 1947


Palestine three-zone partition plan:

1. a 14.000-km2 "jewish"* State with 558.000 "jews"* and 405.000 Arabs

2. an 11.500-km2 Arab State with 804.000 Arabs and 10.000 "jews"*

3. an international-status zone (corpus separatum) including Jerusalem and Bethlehem with 106.000 Arabs and 100.000 "jews"*.


Resolution enforcement deadline: 1 October 1948. For the the First Arabo-Israeli War broke out on 15 May 1948, resolution n° 181 could never be enforced.


Votes of the UN General Assembly sitting in 128th Plenary Session.

1. Approval: 33 States (including France, the USA & the USSR).

2. Refusal: 13 States (Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen)

3. Abstention: 10 States (Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, the UK**, Yugoslavia).


*Please note that the brackets and the lack of a capital J for "jews" and "jewish" is a sign neither of anti-Semitism nor of antijudaism. For I don't see why Atheists should be the only ones to be granted the privilege of being written with minuscules only, I've chosen not to use capital letter for religious obedience: jewish, christian, muslim, buddhist etc.. As for the brackets, they simply mean that the word "jewish" is utterly irrelevant to name the non-Arab population settling in Palestine: some "jews" were absolutely secularised, hence the contradiction.


** the UK was seeking -in vain- to maintain its declining influence thanks to disorders wreaking havoc upon Palestine.

(2) The Bétar is a bunch of cowards whose favourite hobby is beating up Arab-looking people in Parisian streets at night.




(3) In a recent poll, 60 % of the Europeans claimed Israel to be the most dangerous threat to world peace. Iran, North Korea & the youessey all rank second: 53 %. Fifth: Irak 52%. Sixth: Afghanistan 50%? Seventh: Pakistan 48%. Eighth: Syria 37%. Ninth: Libya & Saudi Arabie 36%. Eleventh: Chine 30%. Twelfth: India 22%. Thirteenth: Russia 21%.br>



(4) in Le Monde, 6 October 2000.

Wow! What an eruption!

you can hear one of the shin bet guys on the radio:

http://wnyc.org/shows/bl/episodes/11182003

Get that Indymedia fruitcake out of here please.

Hovering over this is the fear -- and I think this is the main point that the Shin Bet heads are trying to make -- that if Israel doesn't come up with some kind of solution to the Territories, then the Palestinians will start to call for a binational state and then use their eventual demographic advantage to push us into the sea.

HELLO! That's been the plan all along one state and push the Jews out, and ruled by Arab Muslims. That doesn't even cut the mustard. As if the Pal's suddenly realized the demographics in the region, or since reading Friedman's article stating it they said, WOW LOOK AT THAT, WHAT AN IDEA! lol!

To answer Insufficiently Sensitive's question, Shin Bet heads are generally appointed from within the intelligence community or from the higher ranks of the IDF. All four of the men in question are definitely guys who have had hands-on intelligence work and know the situation in the field. I think it would be a mistake to dismiss their comments out of hand.

I agree with that statement though. The logic for dismissing them has been pretty weak! The Jerusalem Post may have put a little perspective on it but it didn't come up with much a smoking gun other than these guys are part of the 'peace camp' now. Fair enough, but did they come to this conclusion due to their experiences heading Shin Bet?

Also, a year ago General Yaalon was saying any surrender of any land unilaterally right now was extremely dangerous and would show a surrender to terrorism and that was dangerous and he also said the biggest threat to Israel is not any external threat but the war with the Palestinians, that if they are not thoroughly defeated so they believe that such wars will gain them nothing in the future Israel would theoretically be sowing the seeds of major trouble in the future. He said this war was as important as the 48 War.

Now I hear him stating otherwise a year later?

What the h happened?

Mike

2 GOOD READS FROM A LEFT POINT OF VIEW at Jerusalem Report appropos to this discussion -

http://www.jrep.com/Columnists/Article-2.html
Clearly vets out what Arafat's new strategy is.

1) New PM with new cabinet completely loyal to him. -DONE-
2) Accomplish jumping over Step 1 dismantlement of the Roadmap in European countries and in Israel which will 'have to take the offer' of quiet with deterrance but no dismantlement OR continued violence.
3) Rush to new elections as to certify the jump over Step Dismantlement which the entire Roadmap was of course predicated on.

http://www.jrep.com/Columnists/Article-0.html
Not just anti-semitism
Makes a great point appropos to the Shin Bet heads publically disagreeing with Sharon's present policies, that fits in with Shark's final take. (Just another public disagreement, nothing major in Israel, ho hummmmm essentially there)
Highlight -

Israel agonizes because our dilemmas are acute -- because our leaders, for instance, are trying to find a balance between thwarting bombers on the one hand, and minimizing the hostility we engender among innocent Palestinians on the other, when such a balance may, in fact, be impossible to achieve.

And Europeans, like Middle East-watchers the world over, may not recognize the context in which we are publicly vexing ourselves because, as ever, of that failure to explain --

(makes a good/legit point however, doesn't mention that a hostile/rabid European Press is also eager to brand Israel and Sharon whenever they can)

Sharansky allowed that, "of course, Israel is failing in its PR campaign." But he ascribed that failure to the Rabin government’s scrapping of public awareness programs a decade ago, pleaded budgetary impediments today, said he couldn’t speak for the Foreign Ministry anyway, and quickly returned to his prime hobby-horse: anti-Semitism as the source of all our ills.

Dear Islamofascism-Christianofascism-Judeofascism [Nov. 19, 06:49AM, up four from here],

Thanks for the concise explanation of, y'know, Stuff!

Please continue to ignore the First Law of Holes. It makes the positions of folks like you clearer to those of us near the Sensible Center of the political spectrum.

Much clearer.