I've always been amused by rightwingers who act deeply offended by anti-semitism.

After all, many factions of the GOP take a pretty dim view of Judaism. Pat Robertson, after all, wrote a book which was largely a rip-off of The Protocols of the Elders of Zionb not too many years ago.

George W. Bush's views of Judaism were not wildly different from those of Louis Farrakhan's several years back.

Even the Evangelical Christian support for Israel isn't rooted in a future for Judaism.

JadeGold you are ignorant.

You say "many factions of the GOP take a pretty dim view of Judaism". Examples? I don't know of any. Or are you just equating the extreme right who have no GOP affiliation with the GOP?

Pat Robertson is one of Israel's staunchest supporters. And unlike Jerry Falwell he believes Jews can enter heaven because they have a biblical covenant with G-d.

You equate Bush's views of Judaism with those of Farrakhan. Care to explain or have you been reading too much Indymedia lately? That statement is a lunatic fringe view. We know what Farrakhan's view of Judaism is. Maybe you can enlighten us with what Bush's view of Judaism is.

I am a right-winger and a Jew and I'm offended by anti-semitism. I guess that means I amuse you. Well your views disgust me. The "progressive" left-wing anti-semites who claim to be just anti-zionist also disgust me.

Examples? How many do you want, Reid?

I've cited Pat Robertson; you might wish to check out The New World Order by Robertson where he warns about the usual tinfoil hat things like a worldwide conspiracy of Jewish financiers and that usual stuff.

Let's also face up to the fact most Evangelical Christian support for Israel is based on an end-time theological scenario according to which the return of the Jews to the Holy Land is a prelude to the Battle of Armageddon, the Second Coming, and the subsequent conversion of Jews to Christ.

Pat Buchanan, anyone?

How about Bush Jr. telling reporters in 1994, Jews weren't bound for heaven? Just Christians.

Tom DeLay? "Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity."

Of course, it's not too difficult to link those southern GOPers who play footsie with groups like the Council of Conservative Citizens and their less than enlightened views about Judaism.

What of the anti-semitism of the Unification Church (Sun Myung Moon's outfit) the GOP seems so fond of? Why did the AJC report "every time Rev. Moon mentions Jews or Israelites he portrays them collectively as reprobate, with evil intentions" ?

How many more examples do you need, Reid? You claim to be a rightwinger and a Jew; for all I know, you might be. Let's assume you're speaking the truth. Is it not possible you're mistaking the *current* rightwing hatred of Islam as unquestioned support for Israel and Judaism?

JadeGold you have just engaged in a bait and switch argument. First you say "many factions of the GOP take a pretty dim view of Judaism". But when asked for examples you don't give any. You cite individuals such as Pat Buchanan who is no longer a member of the GOP. Or you cite the Unication Church as if they are part of the GOP. If Bush said "Jews weren't bound for heaven? Just Christians." it is a statement of his Methodist beliefs and has nothing to do with the GOP. What was the context of his statement if he actually made the statement? Bush's spiritual guru, his Billy Graham, is Marvin Olasky. A Jew who converted to Methodist Christianity. Bush has been the most staunchly pro-Israel President the US possibly has ever had.
Tom DeLay? Tom DeLay recently visited Israel and gave a stunning speech to the Knesset in support of Israel and the Jewish people.

JadeGold your argument is shallow and dated. If you want to see real anti-semitism in US politics today it is in the Democratic party. Specifically the Congressional Black Caucus. Many Jews are leaving the Democratic party because the party doesn't confront it's anti-semites. Do the names McKinney, Sharpton, Hilliard, Jackson, etc. ring a bell? There are no equivalents in the Republican party to those black anti-semites in the Democratic party. How about Moran who said we are going to war with Iraq because of the Jews.

Time to wake up JadeGold and see the world as it is today in 2003. Your view of the GOP is dated. Anti-semitism is virtually non-existent in todays GOP. You are probably in a state of denial about anti-semitism in the Democratic party. In my judgement that is your whole reason for believing there are "many factions of the GOP take a pretty dim view of Judaism".

JadeGold mentions Tom DeLay as one the GOP anti-semites. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is indicative of her ignorance on the subject.

Here is a link to his speech to the Knesset he made on July 30, 2003.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-delay073003.asp

Reid:

You accuse me of a 'bait and switch' argument; I offer numerous examples in terms of individual GOP leaders and in terms of groups they pander to.

What's left?

Do you seriously claim the Unification Church has no ties to the GOP? Wow, that's a profound denial of reality. Heck, your president has even appointed Unification Church officials to his administration. Can you imagine the hue and cry if our last democratically-elected President had appointed a leader of Farrakhan's Nation of Islam to his administration?

Again, I have no doubt DeLay gave a terribly rousing speech to the Knesset affirming his unwavering support for Israel. DeLay is evangelical and as I noted, his support for Israel isn't rooted in the long term future of Judaism. It's about some end-times theology where all the "good" Jews are converted to Christianity and the "bad" ones are...well...

As for anti-semitism being dead in today's GOP--I can only laugh. When southern GOP politicos tell the Council of Conservative Citizens how their ideals represent the best values for America, do you think they cross their fingers and add asterisks noting "except what the C of CC says about Jews being mongrels and the like"?

Do you think Dubya--when he went to Bob Jones University--told Bob Jones to knock off the anti-semitism?

JadeGold comments "Heck, your president has even appointed Unification Church officials to his administration." Who are you referring to? Name names and their office.

You say that Evangelical support of Israel is rooted in the end of times theology. So what. It doesn't matter why Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians support Israel. Most Christian supporters of Israel reject the notion that it is due to end of times theology. They will tell you it is rooted in the Old Testament covenant where G-d granted the land of Isarel to the Jews. They support Israel completely. In fact their support today is actually much more politically potent than Jewish support for Israel. Any Jew and/or supporter of Israel should be grateful that people that have in the past oppressed Jews are now their best friends and allies. Anyone who rejects that friendship puts left-wing partisan politics before the good of Israel and the Jewish people.

I noticed you didn't respond to my assertion that the Democratic affiliated Congressional Black Caucus is the most anti-semitic force in power today.

Name names and their office.

Josette Shiner, Deputy of the US Trade Office. Shiner is a long time Unification Church leader and was managing editor of the church's Washington Times newspaper.

David Caprara, Head of AmeriCorps. Caprara was chief of the church's American Family Coalition which basically was a Sun Myung Moon lobby group which funnelled money to GOP candidates---like Dubya.

So what. It doesn't matter why Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians support Israel.

Check. Then you won't complain when evangelicals in Israel start evangelizing Jews in Israel. And you--Reid--can start telling those Israelis not to worry about Christians proseltyzing in Israel because Israel and Judaism are mutually exclusive notions.

In fact their support today is actually much more politically potent than Jewish support for Israel.

That's pretty funny.

I noticed you didn't respond to my assertion that the Democratic affiliated Congressional Black Caucus is the most anti-semitic force in power today.

I didn't respond because it's a strawman. It's not true.

JadeGold comments "Then you won't complain when evangelicals in Israel start evangelizing Jews in Israel." You are correct. I won't complain because it won't happen.. It is illegal for Christians to evangelize Jews in Israel. But you didn't know that. Add that to list of facts you are uninformed about.

The positions of the Unification Church members you mention are insignificant. I'm sure I could find a bunch of Scientologist in higher positions. Using your logic that would mean Scientologist constitute a "faction of the GOP". I could also find a bunch of government employees who believe in UFO's and are registered Republicans and in your mind that would constitute a "faction of the GOP".

There are 50 million Evangelical Christians in the US including President Bush. The vast majority of which are staunchly pro-Israel. There are 6 million Jews in the US. A sizeable portion of them are either uninterested in Israel or not supporters. Go to any college campus and you will find radical leftist organizations that are anti-Israel with lots of Jewish members. Those organizations have no Evangelical Christian members. Are you familiar with ISM (International Solidairy Movement)? A pro-Palestinian group whose membership is one third Jewish with Jewish leaders such as Adam Shapiro? Where are the Evangelical Christian equivalents?

I'm aware of the 1977 anti-proselytzing law in Israel, Reid. I'm also aware that evangelicals proselytize all the time in Israel.

There are laws against speeding in this country. Are you seriously suggesting no speeding exists in the US?

Israelis are quite sensitive about this; yet, more and more proselytizing occurs in Israel. But what of it? After all, you--Reid--have told us Israel and Judaism are separate and distinct things--so what's the harm in a little Christian conversion?

I'd disagree the appointments are minor. It's a subjective call. But how would you have felt if our last democratically-elected President had appointed leaders from Louis Farrakhan's group to fill those positions? Somehow, I don't think you'd be so dismissive.

Your evangelical numbers are far and away overestimated. But let's say that 50M Americans are evangelicals. As I noted earlier, the only reason evangelicals support Israel is based on the idea that all Jews will undergo a conversion to Christianity. OTOH, most--if not all--Jews don't separate Israel from Judaism, as you have attempted to do. To them, Israel is an inseparable extension of Judaism.

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